Where are all the younger folks?

Duke said:

TravisTheHuman said:

CrustyRedXpress said:

Oh, and [without a degree] you're less likely to get married as well! And the problem is getting worse.

Is this supposed to be selling me on a Bachelor's degree?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I genuinely like my wife and hope to spend as many years married to her as I can.

 

I was was half joking...

Years married indicates what?  how long they are living?  happiness?  health?  If thats the goal, show me data that shows a bachelors degree results in those outcomes, because marriage does not indicate that.

(I'm divorced with a BS engineering)

TravisTheHuman said:

Duke said:

TravisTheHuman said:

CrustyRedXpress said:

Oh, and [without a degree] you're less likely to get married as well! And the problem is getting worse.

Is this supposed to be selling me on a Bachelor's degree?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I genuinely like my wife and hope to spend as many years married to her as I can.

 

I was was half joking...

Years married indicates what?  how long they are living?  happiness?  health?  If thats the goal, show me data that shows a bachelors degree results in those outcomes, because marriage does not indicate that.

(I'm divorced with a BS engineering)

I have a GED and have been married for 38 years. 

In reply to Toyman! :

I have a grade 9 education and we've been married the same time, living together over 40 yrs.

maschinenbau said:

In reply to CrustyRedXpress :

Correlation vs causation. The data here suggests the type of person more likely to die young or not get married overlaps with the type of person who didn't go to college. It does NOT mean that if you just go to college, everything in life will be hunky-dory. 

This. College dropout. Married 22 years. Make more than many of my college friends that got degrees and I'll be retiring(hopefully) a lot sooner as well without that $100+k of debt they accrued. 

Also funny that my B-I-L is now twice divorced and making about 60% of what I make and he has his masters. 

Peabody said:

In reply to Toyman! :

I have a grade 9 education and we've been married the same time, living together over 40 yrs.

I mean look at the chart. You're OBVIOUSLY doing it wrong. Us dummies are supposed to be unhappy, dead and divorced and the smart ones are living la vida loca or something. 

/sarcasm

In reply to bobzilla :

I didn't say I was happy about it

Peabody said:

In reply to bobzilla :

I didn't say I was happy about it

 I have been this far. I hope we get another 20 years. 

In reply to Wally (Forum Supporter) :

We're struggling to replace workers at our place for a number of reasons even though the pay and benefits are pretty good.  People now seem happy to trade money for flexible schedules and time off that we can't give. I was talking to a trainee bus operator a few weeks ago, and hustling 3 days a week with doordash was paying him what we are in five. If I was starting over it would be tough to get me to give up steady 4 day weekends to push a 60 ft bus through city traffic five nights a week, and likely miss most holidays and family events for the first 7-8 years.  People's priorities aren't what they once were for better or worse. 

I missed this the first time around, I agree that this is a big part of the issue. New workers today have more options than they did in the past. If you wanted a job, you had to work what that job required- it was pretty much all or nothing, so that's what people did. Now with gig work, young people have the option of a flexible schedule that they don't often have with a traditional job. I can certainly see the appeal. It used to be that when you were young and inexperienced, you worked when they said to work.  As you got older, you accrued more vacation time and got more choice with your work schedule. There are some advantages to enjoying some of that flexibility earlier in life. However, I'm afraid that there is no such thing as a free lunch, and there are a lot of trade offs that most young people don't consider. Sure you can hustle at Door Dash or Uber and make more money now than punching a clock. But year 5 at those jobs aren't any different than year 1, you are no farther up the ladder, where in a traditional job most would have advanced. I think many fail to realize the opportunity cost with gig work, and in 20-30 years we are going to have a bunch of people that have fallen behind. Now, if the gig work is in place of a traditional job because the flexibility facilitates furthering their education and developing marketable skills, then I think it's a terrific idea. 

Gonna go recruit at some tech schools next month. The younger ones are there. I've hired 50 people this year. Probably 60% greater than 30. 40% less. 

tough hands on travel job. But good benefits.  

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

A lot of those things aren't necessarily the perks they used to be. I mistakenly went from hourly to management. Because I'm no longer overtime eligible I take home less than I would have, and lack the flexibility in taking time off and choosing a schedule and location that I used to have. The further up you go here the worse it gets. The head of my office frequently comes in 6-7 days a week at least for a few hours, is on call 24/7, even on vacations, and can be transferred anywhere in the system without notice.  As far as quality of life goes I would have come out ahead remaining a driver.  There's really no incentive for promotion here anymore.  

I hit post too soon. I stayed here because I needed the health insurance for my wife, and hustling a number of side jobs wasn't really a possibility. I missed a lot of things as a trade off, and if I knew then what I do now likely would have figured out how to make money elsewhere in exchange for some sort of personal life. 

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

You can't make more money at Uber/DoorDash than punching a clock, and there are probably only a tiny sliver of people doing those jobs because they prefer them vs. just being unable to get a full-time job (in large part because they've been taken over by the gig economy, like delivering pizzas which used to be part-time or full-time jobs at the pizza chains).

I always say that Uber/Doordash is really just a way to extract money out of a car, sort of like a reverse-car-mortgage that you have to work for.

GameboyRMH said:

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

You can't make more money at Uber/DoorDash than punching a clock, and there are probably only a tiny sliver of people doing those jobs because they prefer them vs. just being unable to get a full-time job (in large part because they've been taken over by the gig economy, like delivering pizzas which used to be part-time or full-time jobs at the pizza chains).

I always say that Uber/Doordash is really just a way to extract money out of a car, sort of like a reverse-car-mortgage that you have to work for.

If you're smart about it, you actually CAN make more from Doordash, etc than you can from a low-paying entry-level job, especially if you're just looking at hourly pay and not factoring in benefits. I know someone who averages $20/hr ,after paying for gas, Doordashing. Several local jobs start at $15-17/hr. Last i checked, $20>$17.

Sometimes it is possible to edge over minimum-wage pay at gig work if you ignore benefits (and brake pads, and tires, etc), but generally speaking minimum wage is around the max you can make if you work your ass off at it.

GameboyRMH said:

Sometimes it is possible to edge over minimum-wage pay at gig work if you ignore benefits (and brake pads, and tires, etc), but generally speaking minimum wage is around the max you can make if you work your ass off at it.

Exactly. Generally, Doordash is not a "career" but can be a good short-term "job" for someone that doesn't have a real career path and would rather have flexibility with roughly the same or slightly higher pay than just working a dead-end job at a local retail or fast food place etc. Saying that one can't make more is just not accurate. Saying that it can be harder to make more than punching a clock would be more accurate. 

Alright, I'm going to come at this from a different angle, even though I feel a bit bad about talking about my kids issues here.

My son just finished high school at the beginning of summer. Trying to go to school during COVID and having an atypical mental makeup means that he was older than 18 when he graduated high school. He's working part time and considering going to community college to take some classes and figure out what the hell he'll be *able* to do with himself moving on in his life. We're also working on getting him a driver's license, since he couldn't complete the high school program due to (reasons), and any job in this area pretty much means you've got to be able to drive and have reliable transportation. 

I've been trying to steer  him towards the trades, since he can do physical tasks well enough. How does he break into the trades? I never see any ads for companies hiring, despite my area growing like crazy. Do we just show up at a Union hall and ask to apprentice? Show up at one of the larger companies and put in an application? 

In reply to Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos) :

If your area is anything like the northeast, an apprenticeship is likely just a knock on a door away. Most trades are hurting to get people into their programs. Depending on his likes/dislikes, there may be ones to avoid. If he is afraid of heights, a roofer may not be a good fit. Is he good at design, maybe a finish carpenter is his calling?  See if there is something that peaks his interest. I have been an electrician for about 40 years and it is interesting work, you need to use your head and have worked in some very cool places. Carpentry is usually easy to get into as a laborer and he can see what the other trades are doing. HVAC is in high demand, this type of job you can learn a bunch of cross over trades, plumbing/pipe fitting, electrical and sheet metal. Apprentice pay is not great but usually better than minimum wage and if he is a quick learner can go far in a short amount of time. Do you have vocational schools nearby? If so they may be able to recommend some places to look.

In reply to Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos) :

There are a couple different paths...

In areas with a strong Union presence, the Union hall is a good start. This works in the northeast, but not in the South. Not sure about NC. 
 

Most of us in the construction trades started with entry position like digging ditches, but I don't recommend that. Its a rough start that puts you on a short path to nowhere.

Trade school is not a bad choice, plus they will be skilled at working with his individual challenges. They generally lead to at least a job interview or internship start.  (I'm not sure what his limitations may be). It would also give him a chance to try a few different trades to see what he enjoys and has an aptitude for.

Temp work also works for some people. (But pay is low, and there is no ladder to climb)

I don't recommend signing on with whatever residential contractor he can. He'll get all the E36 M3 work.

There are a couple of commercial jobs worth considering.  For example, low voltage electric- the pay is decent, the need is always there, the work is usually indoors, no heavy lifting, some basic problem solving, clear and established rules and procedures, and room to move up the ladder (after wires are pulled, there is always a need for people who can do the final setups and startups)

Mr Peabody can problem give some insight to some trades that are not construction related. 

Ill disagree with SV Rex on with whatever residential contractor he can catch on with a caveat: the low end entry jobs are very E36 M3 job oriented but they are also very low stress and a good way to see which trade he likes.

Concrete is exceptionally hard work, but if you get the right crew to work with it's actually pretty easy. Pay is pretty high as well because it's hard.

Carpentry is easier but the wrong crew means it's many times harder to succeed than concrete.

You get the gist but if you have a friend, or a friend of a friend, etc that needs a laborer and he's say....a General Contractor, he could be doing 5 different trades in a week. For someone starting out this could get a great thing.

But, and I can't stress this enough, do not stay as a laborer once you figure out what he'd like to do.

In reply to Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos) :

On the electrical side, you can check with your local JATC. This one might be yours?...

NC JATC
 

I believe other trades have similar training programs

In reply to Antihero :

Just to clarify...

I agree that concrete work is exceptionally hard PHYSICALLY.

Carpentry can be easier physically, but has more mental difficulties (geometry, math, many code requirements, plan reading, etc). Carpenters are the highest percentage of construction trades that end up on a track to supervisory positions.

Commercial vs residential... Residential is almost always more creative and fun.  Commercial is almost universally higher pay scales (but not as creative).  There is a great deal more repetitive work in commercial (sometimes that's good, sometimes bad).  It's also an environment that is more focused on training and safety adherence, and much more likely to have benefits like health insurance or 401Ks.

...and the skills aren't necessarily transferable.  Residential carpenters work almost exclusively with wood. Commercial carpenters work mostly with metal.

I did residential for over 30 years before switching to commercial for the last 15 years. If I could do it again, I'd go straight to commercial.  I could have retired 10 years earlier.
 

(But my retirement business will be residential)

SV reX said:

In reply to Antihero :

Just to clarify...

I agree that concrete work is exceptionally hard PHYSICALLY.

Carpentry can be easier physically, but has more mental difficulties (geometry, math, many code requirements, plan reading, etc). Carpenters are the highest percentage of construction trades that end up on a track to supervisory positions.

Commercial vs residential... Residential is almost always more creative and fun.  Commercial is almost universally higher pay scales (but not as creative).  There is a great deal more repetitive work in commercial (sometimes that's good, sometimes bad).  It's also an environment that is more focused on training and safety adherence, and much more likely to have benefits like health insurance or 401Ks.

I agree, I meant it physically. Plan reading happens at basic levels in flatwork and a bit more so with foundations but no where near otherwise.

I havent done a lot of commercial work really, and what I did wasn't for myself. I didn't like it very much for the reasons you mentioned. I didn't like the " do 350 yards of flatwork the exact same way 25 times in this building. It doesn't have to look good, be good, or have any redeeming characteristics other than it's ability to be hard and gray". A little overblown but you get the gist. Also on every crew that I worked on, you absolutely stayed in your role no matter what, as the finisher I absolutely did not ever touch a shovel ever. Since I was the best wet screed guy they had, often I would only wet screed on lay down. So if someone was buried 3 ft in concrete and there was only one laborer, you couldn't help. 

That alone would be a downside for whomever wants to try their hand at stuff at least to start. Commercial is a good job though, more power to those that don't mind it. I certainly didn't like it.

I do like carpentry though and have built a few houses. Roofs, not so much.

In reply to Antihero :

I think we agree. 
 

Except on quality. The concrete quality I've experienced in commercial is far better than anything I ever saw in residential. 

SV reX said:

In reply to Antihero :

I think we agree. 
 

Except on quality. The concrete quality I've experienced in commercial is far better than anything I ever saw in residential. 

I tried it twice and they were both mega E36 M3 companies bluntly, which is also why I probably hated it. If I'm gonna work hard, why not make it good too?

There are also horrid residential concrete companies too, but I'd say residential is better around here at least flatwork wise. Foundations, not so much.