Who killed the electric car?

I'm watching this right now on the green channel. This is the most one sided thing I've ever seen. I don't know the full details of the situation, but I'm really irritated that the filmaker isn't even trying to show another side to the story.

I watched about 10 minutes of it and went back to football. I have read all the arguments before so it was a little boring.

Is that a Stearman in your avatar?

The movie is interesting, but it does leave out some very important points/facts. The big one is the actual cost of the cars (maybe 40 to 60 grand). It is pure and simple economics why they didn't sell them. Even the leases they did do on them were rather expensive.

The one part of the movie that is interesting and confusing is why did GM feel the need to crush them? I mean even the one in the Perterson has all the electrics removed. The only thing I can guess is that they put a LOT of money and time into that stuff and did not want someone else to copy it.

Conspiracy makes for a better movie though....

Who cares? I wont buy one anyway so I dont care who killed them. They are(at this time) impractical, too short a distance to dead battery, too expensive, and take too long to recahrge.

I almost posted my same argument about the electric car but instead I'll direct your attention towards this picture:

I haven't watched it and won't, but I'm sure W musta killed it.

Watched the movie, I also found it interesting that they left out some points. The narration was dry, kind of like watching Loose Change.

All in all, I think the EV-1 was a good idea at the wrong time. It was a mandated car, not a car that was built due to overwhelming demand. I'd purchase an electric car for a daily if the price were reasonably low, maybe slightly higher than a Smart. I wouldn't expect anything outside of boring and reliable transport out of one, though.

MarkZ28 wrote: They are(at this time) impractical, too short a distance to dead battery, too expensive, and take too long to recahrge.

You sir are wrong.

I had the opportunity to flog a Mini-E at the Power of DC event. Thanks to the owner for letting me drive a car that most of us will never get to enjoy. By this time next year Mini will reclaim ownership and the vehicles will likely be crushed.

The owner drove it from NJ to Hagerstown, MD. He charged the car overnight at the hotel and put in a couple of hundred runs without needing a recharge. The owner said he quit driving his other cars because the Mini-E is fun and practical. The car has a stated range of about 200 miles, which is sufficient for the average commuter. Fast charge can be done in a few hours. The car has limitations in that it weighs quite a bit more than a regular Mini and is only available as an auto, nothing that cannot be addressed by different battery technology or a different drive train.

EVs are not boring, look at the Tesla. Yes it comes at a significant price point, and the argument that the batteries are the reason are getting hollower each day. Companies like A123 and Ultralife Batteries and many others are offering reasonable cost battery solutions. Yes 3-4 years a go a lightweight Lithium ion solution was pricey, but not so much today. Electric motors are becoming impressive, look at the Highlander and the soon to be released LS600h and their motor generators. Both have impressive drive motors, the Highlander MG2 puts out 167 hp and 221 tq (0-1500) and the LS600h even more than that. Take one of those and put them into a small car and you can have a seriously fun vehicle.

If you have time, here is an area of research on the future of electric vehicles: http://www.udel.edu/V2G/ While I may not agree with Lilley and Pearre on off hours emergency usage and there is an issue with security, the idea is solid and something to think about.

autoxrs wrote: The car has a stated range of about 200 miles, which is sufficient for the average commuter.

I don't buy it. Don't get me wrong, I'll believe the #'s. The problem is, that even if it's sufficient for any reasonable commuters normal day, what about that time your doing something else? If your answer is use a different (ie additional) car, then my return question is then why bother with the electric one as well?

At that point, what is the benefit of the electric? Certainly not economics. Even if it were priced like a traditional car and free to power (neither of which are close), how much gas could you run through your other car (since even by your #s your electric doesn't have the legs to do much more than commute and run around town a bit) provided it was even moderately efficient before you realized any savings?

I'm not saying there isn't a niche. Just that the niche is small enough that it's going to be hard to get the price down. If the price were to come down, then I could see it as a second car for a two car family. But the inability for it to be a primary car cripples its ability to appeal to enough of people (even if for them it will only be a secondary car) to reach that price point.

Batteries are still the hugely limiting factor. Yes. Way better than they were, but still a big hurdle. Pretending that they're remotely close to good enough (for a primary car) to not be the big concern is silly. And until they're capable of being a primary car, they're stuck in a niche market that will get limited development. A nasty circle. Luckily, other industries are driving battery improvements, some fairly rapidly, so eventually electric cars will likely be able to ride their coat tails. But not yet. Note even close.

Really, it's not so much the capacity/range itself that's an issue, it's the inability to extend the range more or less at will in timely enough manner. In many situations a "few hours" for a quick charge might as well be "all night". Fix that and the range goes from "crippling" to "annoying".

keethrax, when the feds stop buying all the giant (ultra) capacitors for their weapon systems and the prices come down, then we will start seeing them in these EV's. Then you can charge the car in a few seconds. EV's won't really be practical until that time.

Dr. Hess wrote: keethrax, when the feds stop buying all the giant (ultra) capacitors for their weapon systems and the prices come down, then we will start seeing them in these EV's. Then you can charge the car in a few seconds. EV's won't really be practical until that time.

Eh. Then they'll just tax the hell out of the electric grid to pay for roads. So I can b taxpaying for your commuting roads while watching TV. Oh Boy!

keethrax: I agree batteries are a limiting factor, it would be stupid of me to disagree. But, consider that we have moved from lead acid, to Ni-MH to Li-ion in the span of a decade or less. So what is an acceptable range? 1000 miles, 1500 miles? The accepted average round trip commute of people in the US is somewhere in the vicinity of 25 miles. One could argue that at a 200 mile range that is nearly 10x the average distance traveled.

One of the solutions that are being innovated are the use of solar energy to supplement the range. A gentleman at Power of DC had a Fiero that used solar cells to boost the standard range. A fast charge akin to "fueling" would be the ultimate solution, as would capacitive storage devices.

I somewhat disagree that range is the issue. Certainly for a full time all-around car, the ranges probably need to be better, but for a commute car they are fine for most. I think the biggest issue at this time is PRICE. I can deal with 50-100 mile range pretty easily but paying 30-40 grand for a simple commute car is way off from making sense for me (and I suspect many others also).

I suspect the reason GM crushed all the EV1s was simply for liability. They didn't want the parts or the cars back out on the roads. Much easier to squash them flat, like the Mazdas from the Cougar Ace.

The saddest car club in the world

The Mini-E will end in the same fate.

Might I suggest hydrogen? Or will I get flamed with a mile long list of bull E36 M3 reasons of why it is not the answer?

Some of us just plain like something that goes "HOOOOOOAAARRRGGHHHH" when you stomp on the gas pedal.

Electric cars just can't make me happy. I haven't tried one but I haven't tried intercourse with another man either and I'm absolutely certain that I'm not missing anything.

Commuting sucks but it sucks less if you're driving a car you enjoy.

Shawn

neon4891 wrote: Might I suggest hydrogen? Or will I get flamed with a mile long list of bull E36 M3 reasons of why it is not the answer?

Because it is bullE36 M3?

RossD wrote: I almost posted my same argument about the electric car but instead I'll direct your attention towards this picture:

Yes. Also;

Trans_Maro wrote: Some of us just plain like something that goes "HOOOOOOAAARRRGGHHHH" when you stomp on the gas pedal.

Like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf6_hok4-lo

keethrax wrote: Eh. Then they'll just tax the hell out of the electric grid to pay for roads. So I can b taxpaying for your commuting roads while watching TV. Oh Boy!

Wait a few more years when solar panels become more affordable and the game will change quite a bit.

keethrax wrote: I don't buy it. Don't get me wrong, I'll believe the #'s. The problem is, that even if it's sufficient for any reasonable commuters normal day, what about that time your doing something else?

A proposed solution are the battery pack swapping stations which are being pioneered by BetterPlace, Renault, Fisker and others. In the time it would take you to fill a tank of gasoline, you get a fully charged battery pack installed in your car. In that model, you own the car but are in effect renting its battery back - which raises its own questions - but at least it gives you more options than simply waiting for your e-car to finish charging.

Keith wrote: I suspect the reason GM crushed all the EV1s was simply for liability.

One of my grandfathers neighbors had an EV1. It decided to burst into flames one day while parked and nearly burned his house to the ground. Im guessing liability was in fact part of it lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrHXdM9f13k

yeah evs are boring and slow...

http://proev.com/