Why America will not work.

Dr. Hess wrote: People that expect someone like a bank or mortgage broker to figure out how much they can afford to pay monthly for a house are financially children and should never have had the opportunity to get into that much trouble. However, they are legally adults, and as such, need to take responsibility for their actions, as has been stated.

There should be some degree of trust that someone you are paying will look out for your interests won't screw you for their own short term gain. I can't know everything. I trust my doctor because he knows medicine, I trust my mech because he knows cars better than I do, I should expect that the mortgage people can be trusted too. Somehow this group gets a pass for behaviour that would embarass a lawyer. If a bus doesn't show up when I tell someone it will they write a three page letter to the mayor, why doesn't this happen when someone sells you a mortgage they know you can't afford. I went around in circles with my mortgage people because I knew what I could and would pay but I can easily see how someone who didn't understand math could trust the man in the nice suit that it would all work out.

I have one thing to ad after reading this great thread through.

I saw several significant points made by both sides of the argument but, "where is the integrity, pride and honesty".

aussiesmg wrote: "where is the integrity, pride and honesty".

in a big cardboard box right next to Jimmy Hoffa

aussiesmg wrote: "where is the integrity, pride and honesty".

Good question, and kind of the reason why I am upset about the original article.

The lack of integrity involved in this story starts at the home owner and follows through to the company enabling her and the NPR reporter glorifying her.

In reply to Wally: Wally, you need to reassess your outlook a tad. While I agree with you in regards to hiring professionals, certain professionals have reputations to be considered. These reputations, on an industry basis, are usually justified. Doctors go into doctoring to help people. There are a few bad apples and some holes in the system (getting bigger every time Congress is in session), but in general, a doctor is not there to screw you. Lawyers go into lawyering specifically to theive from you and society, near as I can tell. Example: Two lawyers in a town representing both sides of a divorce go play golf and discuss how much of the couple's money they will take and split. Don't think it doesn't happen. Bankers and the insurance industry hire lawyers, so that should tell you something right there. That whole mortgage broker industry was so full of scam artists it is amazing it lasted as long as it did. Banks run the credit card industry. They hire lawyers to write clauses in the "contract" that says "Oh, and we can change any and all terms of this contract at any time we feel like and you can go suck eggs." Then they hire lawyers to come after you with the force of the man in blue with the gun to enforce their clauses. You don't want to place your trust in banks doing the right thing.

In general, though, I agree with your statement. When I have to sub something out to a professional, be he a surgeon or shoe repair man, and they ask me what I want done, I tell them "I came to you because you are the expert. Tell me what needs to be done." You just have to be careful what industry you use that philosophy in.

Dr. Hess wrote: Lawyers go into lawyering specifically to theive from you and society, near as I can tell.

Not really. Some of the people I started with wanted to help people. Many didn't know what else to do with a history or political science degree. Some (me, for example) wanted the magical powers that come from knowing how to work the system.

Sometimes I use my powers for good, like last month when I helped some friends (pro bono) get custody of their granddaughter from a deadbeat father and an oft-institutionalized mother. Most of the time I hire my powers out at reasonable fees to put clothes on my kids and food on the table. Only occasionally do I use my powers for evil, but we don't really need to talk about that now.

billy3esq wrote: ... Some of the people I started with wanted to help people....

Emphasis added.

Not pickin' on ya, Billy3, just sayin'.

billy3esq wrote:

Dr. Hess wrote: Lawyers go into lawyering specifically to theive from you and society, near as I can tell.

Not really. Some of the people I started with wanted to help people. Many didn't know what else to do with a history or political science degree. Some (me, for example) wanted the magical powers that come from knowing how to work the system. Sometimes I use my powers for good, like last month when I helped some friends (pro bono) get custody of their granddaughter from a deadbeat father and an oft-institutionalized mother. Most of the time I hire my powers out at reasonable fees to put clothes on my kids and food on the table. Only occasionally do I use my powers for evil, but we don't really need to talk about that now.

Billy Billy Billy Esquire, I commend you for helping your friend, for offering affordable services and even for pursuing eVil for profit.

Most attorneys I deal with don't have that balance in their life, the office next door has a great well balanced attorney and thirteen crooks in alligator shoes.

Wally: I don't trust anyone to change my berkeleying oil anymore; much less something more complicated. Why? Because if I had a dime for every time I said "Hell, I could've berkeleyed that up myself," my house would be paid off already. You're the only one who's going to look out for your best interests.

You know what group of individuals we really don't need...

Realtors. I'm not sure how the national association of realtors is not a monopoly engaging in price collusion. Basically their own stated mission and function in the marketplace is the definition of those two activities. I really dislike them, and blame them for part of this recent housing mess.

Dr. Hess wrote: Banks run the credit card industry. They hire lawyers to write clauses in the "contract" that says "Oh, and we can change any and all terms of this contract at any time we feel like and you can go suck eggs." Then they hire lawyers to come after you with the force of the man in blue with the gun to enforce their clauses. You don't want to place your trust in banks doing the right thing.

You don't really need three years in law school to understand the words "we can increase your interest rate at any time for any reason", yet it is in just about every credit card offer I get in the mail. No sane businessman would sign a contract allowing the other party to up his charges at any time for any reason.

It just amazes me that people take these cards.

Wally wrote:

Dr. Hess wrote: People that expect someone like a bank or mortgage broker to figure out how much they can afford to pay monthly for a house are financially children and should never have had the opportunity to get into that much trouble. However, they are legally adults, and as such, need to take responsibility for their actions, as has been stated.

There should be some degree of trust that someone you are paying will look out for your interests won't screw you for their own short term gain. I can't know everything. I trust my doctor because he knows medicine, I trust my mech because he knows cars better than I do, I should expect that the mortgage people can be trusted too. Somehow this group gets a pass for behaviour that would embarass a lawyer. If a bus doesn't show up when I tell someone it will they write a three page letter to the mayor, why doesn't this happen when someone sells you a mortgage they know you can't afford. I went around in circles with my mortgage people because I knew what I could and would pay but I can easily see how someone who didn't understand math could trust the man in the nice suit that it would all work out.

Mortgage guys are salesmen. Commissioned salesmen even. How the idea got out there that you should trust a commissioned salesman to have your best interest in mind is amazing to me. They are used car salesmen, in a nicer suit.

John Brown wrote: The lack of integrity involved in this story... follows through to... the NPR reporter glorifying her.

I read the article twice after seeing this comment, and I don't detect any glorification on the part of the reporter. The article is written as it should be, neither condemning nor praising the actions of the homeowner. The reader is left to decide that. The only spin being put on the decision is by the homeowner herself and the company helping people with walking away. The story is written mostly from the point of view of the homeowner; perhaps that is what makes you feel that the reporter is glorifying her.

OK, now I'm pickin' on ya, but you set yourself up:

billy3esq wrote: Sometimes I use my powers for good, like last month when I helped some friends (pro bono) get custody of their granddaughter from a deadbeat father and an oft-institutionalized mother.

The lawyer is standing at the gate to Heaven and St. Peter is listing his sins:

Defending a large corporation in a pollution suit where he knew they were guilty. Defending an obviously guilty murderer because the fee was high. Overcharging fees to many clients. Prosecuting an innocent woman because a scapegoat was needed in a controversial case. And the list goes on for quite awhile.... The lawyer objects and begins to argue his case. He admits all these things, but argues, "Wait, I've done some charity in my life also." St. Peter looks in his book and says,"Yes, I see. Once you gave a dime to a panhandler and once you gave an extra nickel to the shoeshine boy, correct?" The lawyer gets a smug look on his face and replies, "Yes." St. Peter turns to the angel next to him and says, "Give this guy 15 cents and tell him to go to hell."

In reply to Dr. Hess:

Congratulations. That's the first new (to me) lawyer joke I've heard in a few years.

poopshovel wrote: Wally: I don't trust anyone to change my berkeleying oil anymore; much less something more complicated. Why? Because if I had a dime for every time I said "Hell, I could've berkeleyed that up myself," my house would be paid off already. You're the only one who's going to look out for your best interests.

Poop - just stop posting, I get sick of hitting the "+1" button all of the time.

nocones wrote: You know what group of individuals we really don't need... Realtors. I'm not sure how the national association of realtors is not a monopoly engaging in price collusion. Basically their own stated mission and function in the marketplace is the definition of those two activities. I really dislike them, and blame them for part of this recent housing mess.

I know this is a little off topic, but it's true. The realtors in Canada have launched a campaign recently to convince people that they are needed. I can't think of a profession that charges so much, and provides so little. I sold my house on Kijiji for free, and lot's of others are doing so as well.

snowdoggie said: It just amazes me that people take these cards.

Most people don't pay any interest. Not sure of the U.S., but 70% of Canadians pay their cards off every month..

Toonas got me doing it too.

Snowdoggie wrote:

Dr. Hess wrote: Banks run the credit card industry. They hire lawyers to write clauses in the "contract" that says "Oh, and we can change any and all terms of this contract at any time we feel like and you can go suck eggs." Then they hire lawyers to come after you with the force of the man in blue with the gun to enforce their clauses. You don't want to place your trust in banks doing the right thing.

You don't really need three years in law school to understand the words "we can increase your interest rate at any time for any reason", yet it is in just about every credit card offer I get in the mail. No sane businessman would sign a contract allowing the other party to up his charges at any time for any reason. It just amazes me that people take these cards.

in more than 30 yrs of using a credit card I've only had 1 mo of interest (a payment in the envelope ... lost on the desk ) (I learned my lesson with a Sears card in '73) ... I pay it off every mo and I've canceled every card that has ever started charging an annual fee...

suprf1y wrote:

nocones wrote: You know what group of individuals we really don't need... Realtors. I'm not sure how the national association of realtors is not a monopoly engaging in price collusion. Basically their own stated mission and function in the marketplace is the definition of those two activities. I really dislike them, and blame them for part of this recent housing mess.

I know this is a little off topic, but it's true. The realtors in Canada have launched a campaign recently to convince people that they are needed. I can't think of a profession that charges so much, and provides so little. I sold my house on Kijiji for free, and lot's of others are doing so as well.

snowdoggie said: It just amazes me that people take these cards.

Most people don't pay any interest. Not sure of the U.S., but 70% of Canadians pay their cards off every month..

I'd be surprised if it were 7% here.