Woodworkers: help me with veneer please?

I've attached a couple pictures below of my latest house project.  It's not quite done (still needs trim and an adjustment to the sliding mirrors).  The bedroom used to have a flat-framed, homosote wall that was 16" away from the outside wall and two tiny doors.  I ripped  that wall out, put in two pantries from Ikea, laminate flooring, and sliding mirrors to make a proper closet that is 24" deep.

The bedroom furniture (bedframe, nightstands) and the laminate flooring I put inside the closet is all very dark wood.  The laminate was called something like java walnut, and the furniture is what Ikea calls black-brown which looks almost black, but with a little bit of brown in some of the grain.  I want to veneer the fronts of those cabinets to match but I have a few questions.

My first thought was to veneer with walnut, then a couple light passes with black stain to get the desired result, then poly.  Then I saw the price of walnut veneer.  Is there a suitable alternative that you think I can stain dark enough?  For instance, I know pine would suck (first of all because of its grain, but I also know that no matter how much you stain it, the sappy parts of the wood never soak it up properly.)  I'm afraid oak might always retain the red colors, and I don't think maple has enough interesting grain to really make it work.

I'm also assuming I want an iron-on or PSA veneer since I'm not sure what the finish is on those cabinets.  It seems like a paint, so I don't want a solvent-based contact cement eating the paint off and thereby destroying the bond.

How would you make these cabinet fronts black-brown (look in the photos at the laminate floor in the closet for a good idea of the color I want.

Here is the old junk ripped out

Here is the start of the new stuff

Here is the mostly completed closet

Here shows the two bottom drawers and upper cabinet door that I want to veneer.

Birch takes dark stain well.  If i’m recommending stain i’d go with valspar from lowes before anything minwax.  The valspar dark colors come out darker and have way more solids.  Generally you can use birch anywhere you would use maple, especially on the end panels or insides of maple framed cabinets.

Excellent.  Thank you.

One other thing confusing me.  Does PSA = iron-on?  Or is PSA just a peel and stick pressure sensitive stuff?

Psa is pressure sensitive, I have used it never so i can not speak to it.  I’ve only ever used the iron on stuff.  You could likely use spray contact adhesive for countertop laminates too.  

The idea of self-adhesive is very attractive for me for a few reasons.  I want to put it on while installed for continuity.  The cabinets are 15"w by 80"h.  So I figured I could get a 4x8 (or two 2x8" sheets) and just iron it on in place, then cut the seams and remove for finishing.  Spray adhesive will require a good bit of masking, and I'm still a little spooked about it dissolving the paint on the faces.

A peel and stick might be tough to wrangle and not get in trouble, which is why an iron-on is ideal for this application.  There will be a perimeter of trim around the outsides which I can brad-nail to the face.  That way the adhesive isn't responsible for holding down edges, it is just responsible for keeping it flat against the face.

Does anyone have any good resources for veneer?  I have looked on Amazon and they have some of the best pricing by far, but I think I need a person to talk to if you know what I mean.  This is one time where I don't mind paying a bit more for the product if it comes with a person who can help me find what I need.

Can you not get those Sektion doors in black-brown? I see that Ikea has messed up their shopping engine - you used to be able to choose door size then choose finish from a drop-down. I don't see how to do that now. But it seems like getting the doors in the right finish wouldn't be too expensive and would be a heck of a lot easier.

I would be concerned about getting anything to stick to melamine in the long term. It is designed to resist pretty much everything.

I know Rustoleum makes a specific paint for Melamine and I am sure there are epoxies that will do the job but a natural veneer will move with temperature and humidity fluctuations where the melamine will not. A water based finish would make it wrinkle up.

I once applied a veneer over a sheet of aluminum and had a hell of a time with it wrinkling in the finishing process.

dculberson said:

Can you not get those Sektion doors in black-brown? I see that Ikea has messed up their shopping engine - you used to be able to choose door size then choose finish from a drop-down. I don't see how to do that now. But it seems like getting the doors in the right finish wouldn't be too expensive and would be a heck of a lot easier.

No, you can't.  There are two reasons I'm doing it this way:  1) the dark wood options from Ikea are blisteringly expensive.  This cabinet with cheap Haggeby door fronts was $250 and change.  With the only dark woodgrain option, they were over $600.  2) without the black/brown as an option, my only choice was a walnut finish that was a foil/paper sticker and wasn't the dark look I was going for.

These cabinets need to shoot the middle between the black/brown and the chocolate brown of the laminate floor.  Nothing IKEA offers comes close.  So instead of more than doubling the cost, I got the cheapest door fronts and now I can spend $100 making it exactly what I want.



 

Jumper K Balls said:

I would be concerned about getting anything to stick to melamine in the long term. It is designed to resist pretty much everything.

 

I know Rustoleum makes a specific paint for Melamine and I am sure there are epoxies that will do the job but a natural veneer will move with temperature and humidity fluctuations where the melamine will not. A water based finish would make it wrinkle up.

 

I once applied a veneer over a sheet of aluminum and had a hell of a time with it wrinkling in the finishing process.

It's not Melamine.  It's paint.  I made sure to get doors that were painted because I knew Melamine wouldn't do the trick.

In reply to Curtis :

Sweet! Carry on then.

If all else fails I figure I could actually sand or strip the paint off and just use the pressboard as the substrate, but I have a feeling it isn't MDF... probably chips.  For that reason I'm guessing that scuffing the enamel is likely the best course.

I will probably scratch a corner to see what's under it.  If its MDF I'll likely strip the paint.  If its chip board I'll just scuff the enamel and glue to it.

Ikea scratch and dent area.  It's full of orphan panels.  You'd probably have better luck long term by finding the right finish oversize panel, and doing the joinery/millwork to get it to the right sizes you need. Edge band as req'd.

Bonus: you will then have decent melamine panels for shelf use.

bluej said:

Ikea scratch and dent area.  It's full of orphan panels.  You'd probably have better luck long term by finding the right finish oversize panel, and doing the joinery/millwork to get it to the right sizes you need. Edge band as req'd.

Bonus: you will then have decent melamine panels for shelf use.

 

 

True, but they no longer make the finish I'm looking for.  The other issue is getting the hardware to work.  I splurged for the good soft-close hinges and drawers, and I can't imagine replicating that highly proprietary millwork for attaching the hinges.  They use about a 2" machined hole in the door and a press-fit expanding hinge attachment.  Regular hinges won't work because the cabinets are 3/4" away from the wall and need to open fully for the interior drawers to open.

I really thought this one through, but I'm now at a point where making these doors into what I want is really the only option.  And my nearest two IKEA stores are each 2 hours away, so I can't just drop in hoping to find the right doors.

On a side note, the As-Is section of IKEA is my second favorite place in the world.  Only thing I like better is the clearance section at Summit Racing

Ikea always has some version of black/very dark brown that should work.  It may not be exactly the same as it used to be as they evolve over time, but I bet it'll work and look better than trying to veneer to melamine..

Honestly, at that point, I'd just start with some nice MDF or ply.  Well, there are lots of other cabinet producers out there, could look into that too for just faces.

Oh, and PSA = Pressure Sensitive Adhesive.

bluej said:

Ikea always has some version of black/very dark brown that should work.  It may not be exactly the same as it used to be as they evolve over time, but I bet it'll work and look better than trying to veneer to melamine..

Honestly, at that point, I'd just start with some nice MDF or ply.  Well, there are lots of other cabinet producers out there, could look into that too for just faces.

Oh, and PSA = Pressure Sensitive Adhesive.

I appreciate that, but as I said above, its not melamine.  Its enamel.

The other thing is that the IKEA panels are all CNC cut with incredibly specific, press-fit hinge connections.  Yes, I could replicate it with an incredible amount of effort, but I don't see why there is so much resistance to just veneering what I have.

ah, sorry, missed the part about them being enamel. That the full gloss white they have?

I still think replicating the hinge locations would be more successful than trying to veneer over enamel. The edge band/corner conditions are going to be very challenging to get to not look like poo. 

Do you have a vacuum pump and bags. I can get just about any veneer to stick to just about any surface with that in the shop. 

I saw it on one of those fancy "Supercar builders" episodes about Bentley and copied the idea.  Frankly I think you are over thinking this. The iron on stuff works fine for flat panels. 

That's exactly what I was thinking... iron on.  Somehow we got off on a tangent of fabricating my own panels being easier. (which I totally understand)

I just want a sheet of veneer that I can iron on and stain to match

Ahh, fair point that they don't have the black/brown in those doors. Too bad. I bet you'll do okay with the veneer on a painted door. You might not even need to do the edges, what with the doors being full overlay and there being walls and mirrored sliding doors adjacent. I would do the faces and see how it looks to you.

Maybe look for the right wood, then add your own iron on adhesive?

Googling "iron on adhesive to non porous surfaces" seemed to have a fair number of options.

In case you're curious...  (reviving old thread)

Here is how it turned out.  Walnut veneer (PSA backed) with one coat of Minwax Ebony stain and two coats of poly.

Well done! I was going to suggest returning the doors and getting something from semihandmade or similar but that looks pretty good!

In reply to Curtis : I use black walnut all the time In fact much of my house it built with black walnut.  Timbers as large as 12”x12” x24 feet  

stop by with your list I’ll provide what you need 

Nice work!

Coulda used shellac.