your kid screwed up... deal with it

Xceler8x wrote: I stand by my statement. If you are off the clock your privacy should be respected. You are not being paid to be a "good guy" off the clock. If the company wants to own you 24/7 they should pay you for every hour. They only get to jerk you around while they are paying you. I know that's not how "it is" but that's how it "should be." To those that want to talk about cops being drunk, pilots snorting coke, etc, etc, ad nauseum. If they're a bad employee they will get fired. A pilot is not a good pilot if he's tweaking. A cop isn't a good cop if he's drunk. It's a self-correcting problem without giving the company the right to dictate how you live. Where are the privacy advocates?

Paid to be a "good guy" off the clock? No.
Required to be a "good guy" off the clock? Yes.

Example:

PRP said: 3. Only those personnel who have demonstrated the highest degree of individual reliability for allegiance, trustworthiness, conduct, behavior, and responsibility shall be allowed to perform duties associated with nuclear weapons, and they shall be continuously evaluated for adherence to PRP standards.

Tweaking pilots have a nasty habit of lawn darting aircraft.

Underage drinking is illegal, period.

They're minors, "rights" don't come into play here. Once you're old enough to make stupid decisions on your own it's different. At their ages, their parents are still supposed to be responsible for them.

All this is doing is simply teaching them that there are consequences to their actions.

And no, I didn't do any underage drinking believe it or not. I lived in fear of my old man. I drink now when I chose to and I also am responsible for whatever the results are.

My parents had real-world punishments for the stupid E36 M3 that I did pull (none of these sit-down and we'll talks about it "I'd really like it if you didn't do it again" sessions).

I love driving, if I was drinking or doing drugs, my punishment was "no car any more", guess what? I never lost my car.

The "off the clock" argument sets precident. Would you want a guy who looks at kiddy porn working at a daycare?

He's off the clock, his privacy should be respected, right? Regardless of whether a law is being broken?

People need to take responsibility for their actions and parents need to grow up and stop being their kids friends and start being their mom and dad.

Shawn

Osterkraut wrote: Tweaking pilots have a nasty habit of lawn darting aircraft.

Therefore they aren't good pilots. Henceforth if they show up at work on cocaine they shouldn't be allowed to fly. If they snort coke off duty, and it doesn't effect their performance, what difference does it make?

Should government or your employer be able to dictate what you do in your off hours? I thought you were an advocate for "less" government.

Trans_Maro wrote: The "off the clock" argument sets precident. Would you want a guy who looks at kiddy porn working at a daycare?

If he touches kids at the daycare he is a bad daycare employee. Therefore he will be fired for being a bad employee.

Again, self-correcting problem.

He's off the clock, his privacy should be respected, right? Regardless of whether a law is being broken? People need to take responsibility for their actions and parents need to grow up and stop being their kids friends and start being their mom and dad.

1. Privacy should be respected. Always. Privacy is not a crime.
2. I agree wholeheartedly with your last statement. Parents should parent. Schools should not parent once a child is at home with their actual, real life, DNA related parents. No contracts needed.

andrave wrote: Thats my main concern. A school shouldn't have any say in what a student does off school grounds. Schools should stick to school time and school property and let the police and the parents worry about the rest.

Two points:
1. They're children. Getting taller and mouthier by the minute, but still children. The job of school and parents is to prepare them for every possible misstep once they are turned loose on society. Toward this goal increasing levels of responsibility are applied at intervals. Screw it up and you deal with the consequences. I understand the point about being falsely accused but 99 times out of 100 the truth comes out. Do you know any 17 year olds that don't brag or confide in their friends, differing circles of friends, eventually someone knows exactly what happened.

1. Just because you're old enough to have sex doesn't mean you're qualified to be a parent, as I've cited in the example above. Another incident came up a few weeks ago where a 40 something mother was keg standing (not very well BTW) at a party for her son in her house, she bought the keg and by the way she's on the school board.

Again, I see your point that the school should be involved in your life only during school hours, but I disagree. Not every parent is nuturing and supportive. The guy that smokes a joint for lunch at work is an adult, his call. School, it's training, extracurricular activities, discipline and demands are a big part of a kid's day. They need to learn how to side step or tread their way around social and academic pit falls; they'll fail but hopeflly learn. Parents can only do so much, schooling and its socializing can only do so much, but it's a team effort.

Dan

Edit: What happened to the alignment?

suprf1y wrote: Don't you find it ironic that, in a country whose people are obsessed with individual freedom, that is allowed to happen? I do. It wouldn't fly up here.

People are not obsessed with actual freedom - they just repeat it like mantra while they wander aimlessly thru their government controlled lives. It's more like Freedom™.

“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.

rebelgtp said: Yeah no company or anything should have any interest in what their employees do it home. Who cares if that pilot flying your family home for the holidays snorted a few lines of coke, or popped some pills or smoked a bowl before coming to work for the day right? And why should schools give a rats ass about the negative press they would get when people find out their sports stars are drunks and druggies right? Oh nor should they care about their students breaking the law. Because you know teenagers aren't impressionable or anything right? I mean some little freshman would never look at what some "cool kid" on the football team was doing and want to copy that making them cool right?

Exactly! Different story along similar lines: When I was a Freshman in High School (on the football team BTW) my Head Coach shot some heroin and downed a couple of beers and decided to go for a drive. As luck would have it, he came barreling down my street (he lived nowhere near me) and plowed into MY bedroom at 70mph. (He was fine because he was so out of it that he was limp when he hit , and everyone in my family was OK, everyone was in another room.) The next day he was fired because the school could not allow someone like that to officially represent them. Even though he was on his own time when he did all of these things, he was still the Taylorsville High School Football Coach. Just like those kids were still members of their football team -- even when they weren't in uniform. If the school does nothing then it is immediately seen as condoning that kind of behavior.

Kid's today.....it's because their parents are products of the 80s . I was always careful of who I partied with in high school and where simple because I knew being part of the football team I was representing not only the school the community. It's all about being one step ahead of the people out to get you

The only two times I got in trouble with my football coach/school for an off-campus event: 1) Doing donuts at a local sports restaurant after a big game and 2) Went to a Taco Bell and drop a nickel on a platform in one of those water donation thingys. Asked for my free cina-twists and the kid at the register shook it and said he didn't see anything. I then proceeded to take my burrito out of it's paper wrap and slung it strait at the kids face.

GlennS wrote: “The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.

I'm pretty certain it was Plato that originally said that, a long time ago.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

DirtyBird222 said: I then proceeded to take my burrito out of it's paper wrap and slung it strait at the kids face.

FTW!

rebelgtp wrote: These kids need to learn that life is not just going to be handed to them on a silver platter and their actions have consequences.

Depends on how good they are. No one cares about the scrubs. Star athletes, OTOH...

Trans_Maro wrote: The "off the clock" argument sets precident. Would you want a guy who looks at kiddy porn working at a daycare?

Xceler8x wrote: If he touches kids at the daycare he is a bad daycare employee. Therefore he will be fired for being a bad employee. Again, self-correcting problem.

Good luck with that one. A day care employee who has kiddie porn on his home computer has now demonstrated an inclination which could affect children in his care. Not a good scenario. Therefore, he should be removed immediately from close contact with kids.

He's off the clock, his privacy should be respected, right? Regardless of whether a law is being broken?

In the above day care worker/kiddie porn scenario, any ham and egger lawyer fresh out of law school could make the case stick. Kiddie porn is different from, say, a traffic ticket which would not necessarily affect his relationship with kids.

Down here not long ago, there was a construction worker who committed a rape after working hours; it appeared he had 'cased' his victim while on the job. Of course he lost his job.

So yes there are precedents for dismissing employees for infractions off of company property and after work hours.

I have done underage waivers (motorcycle racing) many times; it requires the signature of a parent or guardian and yes such a waiver is every bit as binding as one for an adult. These kids and their parents had to sign a waiver before the little beasts could even suit up for scrimmage. That means these kids knew that underage drinking was a punishable offense. They chose to do it (that's what I meant by playing an adult game) and got caught. Play an adult game, accept adult punishment.

Did the kids in question drink or were they present at a party where others drank?

914Driver wrote: 1. They're children. Getting taller and mouthier by the minute, but still children. The job of school and parents is to prepare them for every possible misstep once they are turned loose on society.

I disagree. The job of school is to educate them. The job of parents and perhaps society is to turn them into adults.

Its not the school's place to instill in them religion, morals, etc.

Anyone seeking to prepare a child for "every possible misstep" will fail.

And in this case, these children are already old enough to be "turned loose on society" in the sense that their drinking affects society in the same way that an 18 or 19 year old's underage drinking affects society.

Its not the school's job to punish students for violating regional, state, or federal laws. Its the region/state/feds job to do so. Its the school's job to punish students who violate school rules that are in place to keep the school safe and allow education to take place there (such as drinking on campus, or even being drunk on campus).

I believe a school system is there to educate also, but not just what is found in books. What does one "learn" from football? Sportsmanship, rules, how to lose gracefully?

Religion? Morols? Catholic schools here have waiting lists because of the poor discipline and peer pressure in public schools.

I won't try to sway anyone here, but you won't move me either.

Good luck.

When I was a Freshman in High School (on the football team BTW) my Head Coach shot some heroin and downed a couple of beers and decided to go for a drive. As luck would have it, he came barreling down my street (he lived nowhere near me) and plowed into MY bedroom at 70mph.

For real? Holy cow.

I'm trying to imagine my high school football coach (former Marine, flat top haircut and all) doing that.

^^^Yeah, it was kind of a crazy experience to see this Taurus sail across my yard. Then I ran into the room, saw a car sitting on my bed (through all the dust), then while checking on the driver, I realize it's the coach. Nuts! I always thought he was a pretty up-standing guy until that moment (the drug paraphernalia and booze was still in the car).

andrave wrote: smoking a joint during break and youre under the influence of an illegal substance while youre on the job and that would cause problems for your employer, therefore they would have a right to test for the presence of that substance in your body (and I guarantee you there is a written drug use policy at your business if that is the case, and almost certainly an appeals process if you wish to appeal the drug test).

wasn't talking about a joint while on break... if I were to smoke on my own time (over the week end, say) and was tested sometime over the next couple of weeks , I would immediately be suspended, sent to rehab, and hope the FAA doesn't shut us down.... even though I would have been totally straight by the time I got back to work on Mon....

Xceler8x wrote: If he touches kids at the daycare he is a bad daycare employee. Therefore he will be fired for being a bad employee. Again, self-correcting problem.

just out of curiosity ... if it was your 3 or 4 yr old daughter and he did something to her... you would be ok with letting the law handle ... after the fact... or would you be wondering why he had been allow to hold the job when the daycare administrators knew ahead of time about his off duty tendencies ?

wbjones as an employer I would hire you in an instant with this attitude in mind.

andrave, no way would I have you under my employ, you are too much risk, too anti authority, too ready to argue. I have a job to do and goals to meet, worrying about what you did last weekend is more than I need to add to my workload and concern level. By the way my guys drive for a living, transporting sick people, you would not convince me to use you as a janitor.

Argue the fact but if your employer (assuming you have one) knew what you were saying they would also have grave concerns about your attitude

aussiesmg wrote: Argue the fact but if your employer (assuming you have one) knew what you were saying they would also have grave concerns about your attitude

It's like I always say, I am extremely happy about my job prospects when I get out of school, because there is no way I would ever hire 90% of the people in my class if I ran a business.

When I worked in aviation we had random pee testing.

Again, paid to be a good guy off the clock, no. Expected to be a good guy, definately.

Shawn

914Driver wrote: At our local school the players actually sign a contract

For ice hockey (not a school sport just a club affiliated with the school) we have to sign a contract saying there will be no drugs, alcohol, swearing, or inappropriate behavior on or off the ice. If you break the contract the school can get involved and give you a suspension or detention based on what you did.