1930 REO Speedwagon transmission problem...help me!

So I am a Shriner and the local group has an old fire truck that we use for parades. It can be a little tricky to work on because it is 94 years old and they don't exactly have parts at the local NAPA. There are a couple of 80+ year old guys that are really excellent mechanics and have worked on this truck for years. I have been helping them on this project because pulling the trans is pretty manually intensive and I want to learn this machine better. This is the third time they have pulled the trans and put it back in. First time was to replace the clutch, no issues, second time it was having trouble shifting, they pulled the trans and while it was out someone threw out the bucket of parts which contained the input shaft brake. They bought a new replacement from a place the specializes in old vehicle clutches but it wasn't working right, we bought a new set of disks and friction material. Put it back together and it will not shift properly. 

We can put it in any gear not problem, we can not make it shift while it is rolling. This trans has no syncros so it has to be double clutched and when you push the clutch all the way in it actuates the input shaft brake. I don't know if this is an adjustment issue or what the deal is. Any chance someone has experience with these things? Here is a picture of the truck, the trans and 2 close ups of the input shaft brake, one actuated, one not actuated. 

I appreciate any input and will try to answer questions but I  may not be able to answer them!

The truck, with the original engine and trans, it runs like a top, really amazing for it's age. 

Top down of the trans, before the shift assembly was put back on. 

Here is the input shaft, un-actuated

And Actuated, you can see the new parts behind the actuation plate.

NY Nick said:

We can put it in any gear not problem, we can not make it shift while it is rolling.

So you're saying it can't roll with the changes?

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:

NY Nick said:

We can put it in any gear not problem, we can not make it shift while it is rolling.

So you're saying it can't roll with the changes?

I think it's time for you to fly.

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:

NY Nick said:

We can put it in any gear not problem, we can not make it shift while it is rolling.

So you're saying it can't roll with the changes?

I think it's time for you to fly.

It might need tuning - you can tune an engine but you can't tuna fish.

What oil are you running in it?

That's a sliding gear transmission and 90wt will be far too light. Probably makes it leak like a sieve too.

Get some 600wt from a Model A Ford supplier and try that.

You need something heavy to slow the gears enough that you can make the shift smoothly. 

If it's a Borg and Beck style pressure plate, you may need to adjust the clutch fingers to be sure they contact the release bearing properly. Should be three screw and lock nuts on the pressure plate.

Is it a multi-disc clutch or single?

Also, that Lockheed box master cylinder is the same one used on Duesenberg J and REO Royale. You can buy service parts for it from Straight Eight parts.

In reply to ShawnG :

I can find out if it's a single or multi disk clutch from the guys. They said today that it has 500wt oil in it, that's what "the president of the REO club said to run in it". 
The adjustment was very weird. There is a little clip held on to the back of the clutch with a 1/4 -20 bolt, you take the bolt out and then rotate an intermediate plate which looks to change the preload (or the free gap between the back of the clutch and that plate that pushes on the shaft brake pack. 

Sounds like they're on the ball.

I had a Long multi-plate clutch in a Stutz giving me trouble.  The floater between the discs was sticking and causing a hard shift.

That's all I got. Hope you guys can get it sorted.

In reply to ShawnG :

Thanks. I know this is not a common thing to work on so there aren't a lot of reference people or material out there. I will run this possibility by the guys and see what they think. 
They said that there should be 1-2" of space from the back of the clutch housing to the plate. We started at just under and adjusted 4 times from a little under 3/8" to probably 5/8", shifts were 100% unchanged so I am thinking it's not an input shaft brake issue. 

Just had a look in my Dyke's Encyclopedia. 

This is all I have on REO clutch service. I suspect it covers car clutches.

When I look up the REO truck specs, it says they used their own transmission, a Warner T84C or a Warner T86 if that helps any.

The Warner transmissions are 3-speeds and the REO is a 4-speed. I see three rails so I'm guessing it's the REO transmission. 

Unfortunately, I don't have any information on the transmission itself.

Maybe the clutch isn't disengaging fully.

If the gears don't slow down, you'll never get it to shift.

Maybe leave the inspection cover off the bellhousing and depress the clutch pedal. Check to see if the clutch brake slows or stops the input shaft.

Shawn you are awesome. I will share this with the guys I am working on this with and see where that gets us. I have never seen that documentation (even in the book of info they have on the truck) so maybe they haven't either. We were trying to see if input shaft was spinning through the cover plate hole but it is very hard to get your head to where it needs to be to see it. Maybe I will try to get my go pro in there so I can take a video of it? It was also very sunny out yesterday which made it even harder to look in there. Maybe we can do it in the dark with a drop light in there.

To all the REO music jokers I share this meme...

I do appreciate the awareness bumps though.

NY Nick said:

To all the REO music jokers I share this meme...

I do appreciate the awareness bumps though.

I was just doing it in case your headline didn't grab ShawnG's attention. I'm here for you. 🤘🏻😎

In reply to NY Nick :

Thanks man. Happy to help.

We'll have to take it on the run if I ever get out your way. 

ShawnG said:

In reply to NY Nick :

Thanks man. Happy to help.

We'll have to take it on the run if I ever get out your way. 

and the hits keep coming!

Was there any resolution to this problem?

Or have you already forgotten what you started fighting for?

Good one. Still not resolved. We took another crack at it this weekend with a borescope to try to see what it's doing. We are befuddled, the trans brake is braking like it should, clutch free play is right, still won't shift. 

That's a terrible pic of it. I have a video that shows it brake and release, I will try to upload that video to YouTube and link it here tomorrow. 
i appreciate you checking in on this. 

Weird... I got nothing...

So. It will go into gear while stationary but not rolling, correct?

Silly thought but can you disconnect the driveshaft and try running it through the gears as if you were driving?

Honestly, I only thought of it because I was ear-raped by REO Speedwagon today.

So if I'm understanding correctly, the clutch brake is new because some parts were thrown away? 

Then the new clutch brake was installed and now it sounds like the clutch brake is engaging as soon as the clutch disengages?

Do you know if the flywheel was turned when the clutch was replace (1st or second time) ? 

That would move the pressure plate away from the trans and may be preventing you from getting the adjustment to work properly  The wrong thickness on the clutch brake could also cause a similar issue since more travel Would be required to disengage the clutch  

Is the clutch able to disengage before the clutch brake activates? 

Will it shift while moving if you don't use the clutch and rev match?

I like Shawn's suggestion since that will let see if the clutch is dragging when trying to disengage it before activating the clutch brake. 

You could also adjust things to prevent the clutch brake from engaging. You'd need to start it in gear with the clutch depressed (and downshift to first while still rolling when coming to a stop), but it would narrow down the problem to the  clutch brake if you can shift while moving after making that adjustment.

 

Great set of questions I will copy and paste and answer what I know.

So if I'm understanding correctly, the clutch brake is new because some parts were thrown away? Yes

Then the new clutch brake was installed and now it sounds like the clutch brake is engaging as soon as the clutch disengages? No, there is about 1/4" of pedal free play, then the clutch starts to disengage, there must be 4-5" of throw and then the trans brake will engage about 1.5" from the floor board

Do you know if the flywheel was turned when the clutch was replace (1st or second time) ? I do not.

That would move the pressure plate away from the trans and may be preventing you from getting the adjustment to work properly  The wrong thickness on the clutch brake could also cause a similar issue since more travel Would be required to disengage the clutch: I agree totally here, that is why I got the borescope to make sure it was engaging at full pedal and disengaged when off the pedal, it seems to be right (which surprised me)

Is the clutch able to disengage before the clutch brake activates? Yes

Will it shift while moving if you don't use the clutch and rev match? I haven't tried, I am working with 2 guys that have been around this truck and driving it for decades, they typically assume the driver role, I was thinking that when we test drove Sunday, I could try it this weekend.

I like Shawn's suggestion since that will let see if the clutch is dragging when trying to disengage it before activating the clutch brake. Take a look at the video I am going to put in the next post, I took it so Shawn could see it with his own eyes, maybe you will see something too.

You could also adjust things to prevent the clutch brake from engaging. You'd need to start it in gear with the clutch depressed (and downshift to first while still rolling when coming to a stop), but it would narrow down the problem to the  clutch brake if you can shift while moving after making that adjustment.

ShawnG said:

Weird... I got nothing...

So. It will go into gear while stationary but not rolling, correct?

Silly thought but can you disconnect the driveshaft and try running it through the gears as if you were driving?

It will go into all gear normally when sitting still. We put it up on jack stands and could not make it shift that way, we also left it in gear and actuated the input shaft brake and it stopped the rear wheels.

I agree with No Time.

Disconnect the clutch brake and see how it operates.

Remove everything extra from the system and see if you can make it work. Then start adding bits back in until something causes trouble.