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Cloud9...68
Cloud9...68 New Reader
1/1/19 3:51 p.m.

Interesting comments and observations.  It makes sense that if sim racing didn't come reasonably close to the feel and experience of the real thing, it wouldn't be so popular, even without running on full motion rigs, which are out of reach for most people.

Speaking of which, I ran across this, which almost seems too good to be true, so I'm wondering if there is a catch:

https://www.simxperience.com/Default.aspx

From the descriptions, this company's products seem to offer everything companies like CXC and Simcraft do, at literally a fraction of the cost, even for the full-blown Stage 5 system, which retails for $26K.  And the reviews and write-ups of SimXperience's products have all been very positive.  I like how you have the option of upgrading as you go, which makes for a cost entry point that isn't too far above that of a stationary system.  What gives?

Maniac0301
Maniac0301 Reader
1/1/19 5:42 p.m.

In reply to Cloud9...68 :

Its becoming less niche and things like stepper motors are much more commonly available for cheaper than ever.  Also you can run the whole thing on an arduino instead of crazy expensive to develop proprietary control systems.  I expect these things to drop much more than 26k.  I would be willing to bet we could see a kickstarter for a 5k setup similar to the $600 direct drive wheel.

Cloud9...68
Cloud9...68 New Reader
1/1/19 5:57 p.m.

What's beconing less niche - motion platforms, or simracing platforms in general?  Everything else you said went whooshing way over my head :-) .  arudui-what?

pushrod36
pushrod36 Reader
1/1/19 6:34 p.m.

Check out www.sim-seats.com. Zach is a friend and has been doing this for ten years now. 

Motion is awesome, but not necessary to develop driver skill. Money on a good wheelbase and pedals is a better investment. 

I like the VR headsets, but many people don’t because the resolution isn’t very high yet. 

Cloud9...68
Cloud9...68 New Reader
1/1/19 9:45 p.m.

Thanks - so many options.  One ting I've learned is that before plunking down any cash on this stuff, I'm going to have to figure out how I can try out some different types of simulators.  I'm not at all sold on the idea that a rig that doesn't move can even come close to replicating the sensations of driving a real car on the track, but I could be convinced otherwise by trying out different options.  No idea how I would do that, though.

sleepyhead
sleepyhead GRM+ Memberand Dork
1/2/19 7:34 a.m.
Cloud9...68 said:

Speaking of which, I ran across this, which almost seems too good to be true, so I'm wondering if there is a catch:

https://www.simxperience.com/Default.aspx

From the descriptions, this company's products seem to offer everything companies like CXC and Simcraft do, at literally a fraction of the cost, even for the full-blown Stage 5 system, which retails for $26K.  And the reviews and write-ups of SimXperience's products have all been very positive.  I like how you have the option of upgrading as you go, which makes for a cost entry point that isn't too far above that of a stationary system.  What gives?

They're, uh, reducing cost by only moving the seat, which is mounted on a some form of universal pivot bearing.  So the mass being moved is much smaller... reducing power required, which reduces actuator cost.  However, it might feel funny since you're pivoting around a fixed point... which probably isn't in alignment with the vehicle's CG.  Reading a bit, it sounds like they think they can tune it to "each person"... which means they're tweaking it for how high your head is above the pivot point... which means you'll have to re-tune it for anyone outside probably 2" of your "torso length".  It also sounds like they might be using air bags in the seat to give the feeling of some cues.  Old-school simulators used to do something similar... except they'd put the balance point at the a/c cg, hang the cockpit off the front and throw a counterbalance weight on the back.  And other fixed-based fighter simulators use air inflation for g-cueing.

This setup would probably work best with a VR headset... I'm not sure if you'd get motion sick because of misalignment of the seat with the screen base... or just keeping your hands and feet on the controls.  Theoretically, if you're focusing at infinity... and the visual image... then you might not have any issues.  I'll see if I can dig up the actuator specs, and dig more into the lateral actuator... but my guess is that the lateral actuator is mainly going to be used for "seat shaker", and giving the feel of bouncing off of curbs... otherwise it doesn't look like it has enough travel to do much other cueing.  It might actually be useful for autocross... but not necessarily the track.

All the other actuator/motion-bases discussed up to now are moving a platform that includes the chair, pedals, wheel and screen base.

I think it's telling that they don't give the actuator specs on their website.  22lbf, +/-75mm at 400mm/s maximum... is pretty limited.

Looks like there's one in Bristol... maybe visit it when you go for the nascar race.

Hoondavan
Hoondavan Reader
1/2/19 8:43 a.m.

Some of the indoor carting tracks have simulator options. It might be a good place to try them out low-cost/low-risk.

Autobahn has several sites (one in Jacksonville).  I've never tried the sim, but electric carts can be fun. 

 

Maniac0301
Maniac0301 Reader
1/2/19 10:33 a.m.

In reply to Cloud9...68 :

Sim racing in general and the idea of a nice dedicated setup is more prevalant. It used to be that more than one computing device was crazy.  Now you have multiple devices, tablets, gaming consoles, and importantly the network infrastructure to run all these things.  In addition the whole maker movement has brought many things into the hobbyists hands. 

Resolution in VR is an issue.  You become the king of hitting apexes because everything just feels right in scale.  You also become king of missing brake points because they come up so quickly and aren't as sharply detailed compared to triple screens.  Still I wouldn't give up my VR for a second.  We are also on the cusp of higher resolution headsets coming out which will help.

gencollon
gencollon New Reader
1/4/19 3:04 p.m.

I found the Vive's resolution to be more than adequate for racing, and the immersion using the 3D headset was a HUGE step above simming on my 36" widescreen, which is already a big step up from a normal aspect-ratio monitor. And the new Vive Pro is out now with 78% more pixels than the old Vive I tried out. I can't stress enough how much of a difference the 3D headset makes... not necessarily to lap times, but to the feeling of being there and driving a car. You really need to try one for a few hours to understand. The first ten minutes in VR were weird feeling for me, because you expect to feel motion and forces that just aren't there.... but once those sensations go away it really is something amazing.

Even without a motion rig, it is quite easy to figure out what the car is doing. You see little changes in the yaw rate of the car, little changes in tone from the tires at the different corners of the car, and the force feedback steering wheels do a fantastic job of telling you what your virtual tires are up to. 

I have not used any motion sims or shaker units. People claim they help, though I have doubts about them. Realistically, there is no possible way to get a chair to produce the same forces as it would in the car, even if it were able to rotate freely and fully through any axis, it just can't be done. 

Personally, I don't think you need to spend anywhere near $50k to have a high quality, useful, and enjoyable sim rig. 

You'll want 

A high end gaming PC

A VR system

A direct drive FFB steering wheel

Pedals

Shifter

Maybe a handbrake

And a comfortable, rigid mounting setup with similar geometry to your real car.

 

FWIW here's Jimmy Broadbent's Q&A from his youtube channel description (he is a Youtube PC sim racer, professionally) You can certainly spend more on sim racing eqpt. But this list is more than adequate to learn track layouts, and stay sharp between events.

  1. What is your rig?

  2. Wheel Base - Open Sim Wheel Direct Drive 30mn MiGE Motor

  3. Main Rim - Momo Mod 27(C)with Ascher Racing C26S Button Box

  4. Rig - Heusinkveld Sim Rig GT

  5. Pedals - Heusinkveld Pro Pedals

  6. Shifter - Fanatec SQ 1.5

  7. Handbrake - Fanatec Clubsport 1.5

  8. Seat - OMP TRS-E

  9.  

  10. What is your PC setup?

  11. GPU - MSI 1080Ti

  12. Mobo - MSI Z370 Gaming Pro Carbon

  13. Ram - 16gb Corsair Vengeance

  14. PSU - 850W (I forget the brand)

  15. CPU - I7 8700K

  16.  

  17. What headset do you use?

  18. Audio-Technica BPHS1 Broadcast Stereo Headset

  19.  

  20. What gloves do you use?

  21. F33L SR1-X Sim Racing Gloves

  22.  

  23. Why do you wear gloves?

  24. To protect my hands from the wheel. OSWs are very powerful and it's very easy for my hands to become blistered

  25.  

  26. Why don't you stream in VR?

  27. Driving for long periods of time in VR is uncomfortable. I'd rather be comfy + be able to read chat.

  28.  

  29. Why don't you stream on Twitch?

  30. Because I prefer YouTube. That's literally it.

  31.  

  32. What is the best sim?

  33. X Motor Racing /s

 

 

 

Cloud9...68
Cloud9...68 New Reader
1/4/19 4:22 p.m.

Good inputs - thanks.  I can see how VR can have a lot of advantages in terms of simulating the level of immersion of actual racing vs. monitors, plus they take up a lot less space, and are cheaper overall.  But your post brings up another question - as someone who has never tried a simulator before, what's up with this "force feedback" stuff?  I've read comments in reviews of wheels containing statements like, "Be careful - if you try to hang on, it will break your wrists."  Wha??!!  I've been tracking my car for over ten years, and I've never come close to feeling the type of kickback that sim folks seem to think is somehow desirable, no matter how hard I bang into curbing, or even on the occasions where I've left the track.  What gives?

gencollon
gencollon New Reader
1/4/19 5:10 p.m.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1gGo8QheDU

The best sim racing wheels now are a steering wheel bolted directly to an electric motor. The sim physics drive the wheel so that it feels similar to the real car as possible. (works brilliantly IMO, feels just like driving a car around: caster centers the wheel, the steering weights up as G builds, curbs and cambers feel different, the wheel feeling goes numb during understeer and light when oversteering etc.) You can tune the FFB settings to your liking quite easily in-game or through third party apps, so you don't need to have lots of raw force if you don't want it.

http://opensimwheel.wikidot.com/

You're right about there being some potential for bodily harm here: you've got a strong servo motor with a spinning wheel on it. There's got to be a practical limit to how strong of a motor you want to use. Looks like the big Mige motor used in the OSW kits has about 22 ft*lb of peak torque: Doesn't seem like enough to break a wrist in normal use (even if you had the FFB set to 100%)... but I wouldn't want to stick body parts through spokes of the wheel, and then let the wheel motor run...

If you have ever driven a car without power steering, or a go kart, then you know how violent the feedback through the steering wheel can be, especially if you spin, or hit something. Don't formula car drivers just let go of the steering wheel before they crash into a wall for instance? A quick search shows the wheel getting ripped out of this guy's hands during an incident for example https://youtu.be/w1m2Kx3Xr2o?t=7

The general trend seems to be that the more powerful the steering wheel motor is, the better the quality of the force feedback: the motor has more overhead, so there is no signal clipping, and the extra torque helps accelerate the mass of the steering wheel quicker, and therefore provide useful feedback to the driver sooner.

 

Maniac0301
Maniac0301 Reader
1/4/19 9:08 p.m.

I've been keeping up on the FeelVR guys.   They have an indiegogo to put out a direct drive wheel at substantially lower cost than you can even build one.  Reviews have been pretty positive so far although I've seen no long term testing.   Hopefully its not a pile of BMW parts and holds up.   I'm fine if its not as powerful as other options no one even runs those things at 20% of their capability.  https://feelvr.game/

Cloud9...68
Cloud9...68 New Reader
1/5/19 9:13 a.m.

gencollon,

Thanks for taking the time to write such a thorough response to my question.  Watching the video where the guy runs his wheel at 50% FFB, it's producing a ridiculous amount of kickback that seems completely unrealistic.  I didn't watch the rest of the video where he runs it at 75% and 100%.  To put it in layman's terms, is it accurate to say that kickback is a side-effect of the conditions needed to give the desirable feedback you describe (caster centers the wheel, the steering weights up as G builds, curbs and cambers feel different, the wheel feeling goes numb during understeer and light when oversteering etc.), and it's up to the individual to find a happy medium to deal with this tradeoff?  What level of FFB do you generally run?  Judging by the video, I would think anything above about 20% would create an excessive amount of kickback.

Regarding the question of stationary vs. motion rigs, I'm getting the impression that there's a consensus that in order to truly replicate the g-forces in an actual race car requires a rig that is extremely large and heavy, and costs many hundreds of thousands of dollars, and that the "affordable" motion rigs don't come close enough to simulating reality to make it worth the extra cost over a stationary rig.  Several people have stated that the money is better spent on a good FFB wheel, a quality set of pedals, and one of the emerging VR headsets to tie it all together.  Is this accurate, or is there still enough benefit to having some motion to make it worth saving up for?

Thanks;  I really appreciate everyone's patience with my noobie questions.

gencollon
gencollon New Reader
1/5/19 12:44 p.m.

In reply to Maniac0301 :

I hope that project works out for them, but as of now, the "preorder" title is misleading. It's more of a $600 donation, and the Feel VR team may never ship a product to a customer. Bit of a gamble if you ask me. That said, if you want to wait for confirmed deliveries, the wheel/pedals will still be a great comparative value at $900 or so.

Rodan
Rodan HalfDork
1/5/19 1:09 p.m.

I'm really happy to see more products coming to market for sim racing.  I have a Fanatec setup that has been good for a long time, but may be looking to replace it if the software/computer side continues to improve and I move off a console setup.  

Options are good! smiley

gencollon
gencollon New Reader
1/5/19 2:22 p.m.

In reply to Cloud9...68 : 

Yeah, 20% might be a good number for GT car enjoyment at home.

Here's the final turn at sebring in a P2 car for reference: Sebring

Steering torque in a real car is all determined by the upright geometry, rack geometry, alignment settings and the track surface... Then you can add an insulative layer of power steering on top of that, and significantly reduce the driver forces felt. But the steering torques coming through the system are still there, when taking a curb, or going over a rough section of track. You could try to hold the steering wheel steady with all your might, but it will still bounce around a little bit. 

That said, you don't need to worry about that stuff in sim racing, just mess with the settings for a couple minutes to figure out what you like once you have a setup. Each sim is a little different, each wheel system is a little different, and each person's preferences will be a little different.

 

As for motion rigs: It isn't that the system would have to be large and heavy and expensive to "truly replicate the g-forces in an actual race car". There is no possible way to get the correct forces in a stationary yawing, pitching, rolling chair. It is physically impossible. Think about this: you have 1 G to work with. You are sitting in a chair now (or standing) and experiencing 1 G downwards. We could strap you in a chair and roll it 90* to the right, and you would be experiencing 1 G to the right side of your body, kind of like you were in a steady left hand corner on 300 tw street tires. Except that to get there, we had to roll you, which you would feel, and that in itself would be quite a different experience to a car, where the lateral forces build very quickly with just a little bit of yaw. 

So think about a slalom next: in a car, there's a little bit of yaw, a little outwards roll, and a bunch of lateral G forces, left, right, left, right. How do you replicate those lateral Gs with an expensive motion rig? You roll the driver left and right and left etc... except that the rig needs to roll the driver from full left to full right as quickly as you turn the steering wheel from left to right to get through the slalom.. Those will be some pretty high roll rates, and I think it's likely that your inner ear will know something weird is happening, even if the visuals are good. Likewise, you can't really get the yaw rates correct in the motion sim, because you need the available motion to get the lateral forces.... and any yaw turns those lateral forces into partial longitudinal forces if the chair is rolled on its side, so you'd feel as if you were braking or accelerating instead of yawing...

We can keep going with scenarios like this for a long time, just try thinking about them on your own and you'll begin to realize the full motion rotating chair isn't really a great substitute for driving a car around. I haven't tried one, but I'm inclined to think that I'd rather have no motion, than bad motion which has some lag from the inputs (because the actuators can't keep up with the speeds required) and weird rotation rates that don't replicate what you'd experience in a car.

Prototype Motion Sim

That all said, I don't 'see why a couple actuators with limited motion couldn't provide more tactile feedback to the driver: The track is bumpy here, you hit that curb, you caught that slide etc... Skip to 51 minutes to see the expensive chair shaker thing in action.

Sim Racing Garage D-Box 440i Review

You can add and modify your sim setup over time though. No need to start with a full motion rig. Get a good wheel and a rigid base to start with and see if you like it.

 

 

californiamilleghia
californiamilleghia Reader
1/5/19 4:37 p.m.

Found this today 

Sim737.com.au

It's in Hobart Tasmania

If I ever get there I will be going there first thing ?

 

Cloud9...68
Cloud9...68 New Reader
4/20/20 3:14 p.m.

I started this thread sometime ago, and am getting close to pulling the trigger on a sim rig.  Most of the information on simulators is geared toward people interesting in online racing, which looks like a lot of fun, but it just isn't my priority at this time. I'm primarily interested in using the sim to practice between track sessions and (eventually) races.  Specifically, I completed the first of three two-day classes at Sonoma Raceway required to compete in their arrive-and-drive series, in KTM X-Bows.  I live out of state, and the tracks near me don't compare to the intense elevation changes and blind turns at Sonoma, so augmenting local track sessions in my car (a track-prepped Porsche 968) with time on the sim in a car as close to a KTM as possible, on the Sonoma track, sounds like a good strategy. 

So, with that long introduction, on to my question, which is as newbie as can be, but the shoe definitely fits here:  How exactly would I go about focusing on solo track sessions in a car as close to what I'm going to drive at Sonoma, on a simulation of the Sonoma track, without (at least initially) actually competing wheel-to-wheel in actual races?  I just want to focus on driving skill related items:  experimenting with different brake points, lines, gear selection, figuring out where I can be flat out and where I have to lift, etc., without the "distraction" of racing against other drivers?  Does iRacing have a "solo" option, or is there other software better suited for private lapping and skill development?  Also, could someone recommend a software to help with practicing catching a spin (something we worked on quite a bit in the class)?  Thanks;  apologies if my questions are basic and ignorant. 

Espartan
Espartan New Reader
4/20/20 4:10 p.m.

Not 100% sure if there is a better option in terms of realism because I'm just wading back into the sim racing/driving pool myself, but Assetto Corsa has the xbow and you can download Sonoma. The track was created by the online community, not the developers, and the quality looks so-so. Here is a video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=952DlTOtiuE

iRacing has Sonoma, and it should be a very accurate representation (I assume laser scanned) but no KTM I am aware of. I would think that iRacing with a car with similar performance to the x-bow would be a better way of learning the track and experimenting, someone here may be able to give you recommendations on a car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJZHU8GPcIc

You should be able to hot lap on pretty much any software.

Cloud9...68
Cloud9...68 New Reader
4/20/20 7:08 p.m.

Espartan,

Thanks very much - your last sentence answered my main question.  I assumed that was the case, but the emphasis in the sim world is always on racing, as opposed to skills practice, so I wasn't 100% sure.  Sim racing does look like a lot of fun, and is what I'm sure I'll graduate to quickly, but with the shutdown of all tracks, including Sonoma, because of Covid-19, I want to get a solid amount of practice in on my to-be-assembled sim rig before I take class #2.  Unfortunately, a lot of the components I need (wheel base, pedals, and wheel hub) are on back order, so, like everybody else, I will have to wait a little while.  I wish I had pulled the trigger on this sooner.  Oh, well.

Espartan (Forum Supporter)
Espartan (Forum Supporter) New Reader
4/22/20 11:48 a.m.
Cloud9...68
Cloud9...68 New Reader
4/25/20 12:14 a.m.

Great video, exactly covering my motivation to get into sim driving.  Thanks.

ckosacranoid
ckosacranoid SuperDork
4/29/20 3:36 p.m.

You want to know how good the tracks are in game to real life?

This year at the chilly bowl for midget racing in jan they has an issue with cars crashing in turn 1 and 2. they reached out to IRacing to ask what the specs where for the track in game since they had come out a couple of years before hand to measure the track for the game. They found that the inside of turn one was off by 6 inchs or something and where able to fix it before the the next night of racing.

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