Cleveland Cyclewerks?

Rusnak_322 wrote: Get a picture of a real person riding it. I have been there and seen them in person (but didn't ride it) and they are tiny. My 5'3" wife looked big on it.

I too have seen them in person (two different shops), but I have not ridded one. The first shop had no Misfits, but several nice Heists, inciuding one customized bike. The shop owner told me that most riders find the Misfit too tall (seat too high).

I then went to another shop and saw and sat on the Misfit. It is lower than my GT380 and CB450K. NEPA is cruiser heaven. AS Sportster is considered an aggressive bike.

That being said, I was impressed with the fit and finish of the CCW bikes. Welds were cleaner than any of my pre-2000 bikes.

As for being assembled in China read the CCW story. The founders were rebuffed by U.S. suppliers and inn spite of all the incentives for job creation and high-mileage vehicles, the government turned them away. I have conversed with CCW officials via e-mail several times. The impression I have is that they would build more of the bike in the U.S. is they could.

As for the engine; it is made in Taiwan in a former Honda-funded factory and is derived from a Honda design. What is the difference in buying a CCW bike than any other foreign-made vehicle?

What gets me is the double-standard many people have with where vehicles are made. Critics point to the fact that even though many Toyota vehicles sold in the U.S. are made in the U.S., the money goes back to Japan (never mind that Toyota, like Ford and GM, has shareholders around the globe. Shareholders are the real owners and get the profits by way of dividends). However, when an American company builds stuff overseas, those goods are foreign too. Never mind that U.S. jobs were created as well.

Is the deal that something is not worthwhile unless the entire manfufacturing process happens in the U.S.? I think a reveiw of "The Wealth of Nations" may be in order.

I fully support CCW andm as soon as my red Shelby Dakota is finished and sold (being painted now). I will have a Misfit in my garage.

In reply to Rusnak_322:

In urban areas, I would feel safer on a small 12 hp bike. The larger bike is nor safer if hit by a car and does not have the room to use its greater acceleration to avoid trouble. In fact, a larger bike's lack of maneuverability and copious power makes it cumbersome in urban areas. Where the CCW bikes would be at a disadvantage is on the interstate.

They would be ideal as an "errand bike" for me. Most of my riding is done on low traffic, two-lane rural roads with speed limits between 30 MPH and 55 MPH. I have little need to race out into traffic so the 12 HP does not matter. Their top speed of 70 mph does not affect me either. I have been to 70 MPH on my GT380 about four times.

I like riding local back roads (smaller even than two lane state highways). The nimbles an dgradual power roll-on of the CCW bikes is perfect. I road my TW200 for years. It was the best back road bike I ever owned. The only reason I sold it was that my work schedule and family obligations left me no time for riding. Although ,y GT380 and CB450 could completely toast the CCW bikes, I doubt they would be more enjoyable on a back road.

Since the CCW engine is based in the Honda CG series, I wonder if there are performance parts available. One could probably have the cylinders bored (a bit), compression raised. Intake and exhaust would be easy to improve. Heck, going from 12 to 16 or so HP would be huge.

Moparman has just described my Twinstar.

In reply to Appleseed:

CM125 or CM250?

CM200T.

As a side note, I went to my hotrod buddies vintage drag race at Union Grove. I was paired up against a blown fuel altered. Yes. I'm sure I'm the first to ever do that.

In reply to Appleseed:

Ah. I was once paired up against some type of Altered roadster. I think it was when I was driving my Charger 2.2 autocross car which ran the 1/4 mile in teh high 16s. It suffices to say that he was having lunch by the time I a crossed the finish line.

Moparman wrote:

Is the deal that something is not worthwhile unless the entire manfufacturing process happens in the U.S.?

No, the deal is that something is not worthwhile unless the company that designed the product, developed the product, tested the product and deemed the product fit for sale is the same company responsible for manufacturing the product.

This is important because part of the job of manufacturing something is to question whether this tolerance must be this tight, and whether that process must be used as compared to another, and therefore it is part of the job of engineering to justify why this tolerance or that process must be followed. That is part of the balance of cost vs. function. Without that balance, you get low cost, and corresponding low function. Maybe not in 1 hour of use, but eventually within the life of the product, it will show.

So Honda building product in China, yes, probably almost the same as a Japanese made part. A China clone of a Japanese made product, made in an old Japanese joint venture (or the like) plant, without Japanese support, that is for sure not the equivalent.

China is getting to the point that they can build precision products to a supplied print, but that does not mean that they understand why the print has this tolerance or specifies that process, and when China wants to make a precision part, they do like everyone else in the world and wait for 50 weeks for delivery of a German or Japanese machine, except without the discpline or expertise that other global manufacturers have developed over many years to make the best use of that precision machine.

So product coming out of China may look more or less like the equivalent product from the US/Germany/Japan company, but judging an engine based on exterior appearance can be deceiving when the important parts must have micron tolerances.

Harbor Freight tools sell because they are cheap, I have no quarrel with that justification for buying from them. But do not argue that Harbor Freight tools are the functional equivalent of Matco or Snapon or Wiha just because they approximate the good stuff in general exterior appearance. I have seen no in-house China produced engine that does not follow the same script of cheapening and inconsistency as China produced tools.

In reply to grpb:

Just because Chinese tools are not on par with Matco or Snap On, doesn't mean they cannot be. Lowes had Kobalt made in China and they are of good quality. Maybe not on the level of the premium tool brands, but better than many Harbor Freight tools.

You also make the assumption that CCW has no control over the quality of the products being produced overseas. Other than a few brief conversations, I do not know the people who run CCW, but to automatically assume that they are accepting of any old crap that is foisted upon them is an unfair assumption. I have given the Misfit an the Heist goings over and I found that the intial quality (fit, finish, welds, etc.) is on par with basic Japanese bikes I have experienced.

There was a time that "Made in Japan" meant junk. This was because that,after WWII, many Japanese companies turned out anything with which they could make money. This initially hurt Japanese vehicle manufacurers as it was automatically assumed that their vehicles must be of low quality. Admittedly, some Japanese vehicles of the 50s and 60s did have their fair share of manufacturing issues. However, that did not mean that everything was crap, nor did it mean that quality control could not and would not be improved.

When it comes to motorcycles, the most important consideration are the quality of frame construction and powertrain quality. Anything else can be quickly remedied and often upgraded by owners anyway. The engine is a simple design based in the Honda CG series. The frame is a basic design whic appears to be fairly well-constructed. For aboyt $3,200, I think the CCW bikes offer value. Given the reality of the Country and economy, I belive the CCW team was left with two options.

1) Build bikes with most of the parts and the majority of construction and assembly overseas.

2) Don't start the company at all, do not create jobs for themselves and provide jobs for others.

They tried the domestic route first and were met with road blocks. Would it have been better if they did nothing.

FYI: I know my CB450 and GT380 are old bikes, but the build quality (welds)is not terrific, probably not up to the standards of European bikes of the time. Still, they were not bad products and the demands of the market forced them to improve. This will happen with goods made in China, India or country which wants access to U.S. consumers.

Moparman wrote: In reply to grpb: You also make the assumption that CCW has no control over the quality of the products being produced overseas. Other than a few brief conversations, I do not know the people who run CCW, but to automatically assume that they are accepting of any old crap that is foisted upon them is an unfair assumption.

It is not an assumption on my part. Even the large global OEM's have no choice but to partner with local joint ventures in order to produce in China. The interactions and output of precision parts with that forced arrangement is not something I am guessing at.

As for CCW's choices, I have no argument. Any company would do the same in the same situation, whether it is the right or wrong thing to do is not relevant, since it was the ONLY thing they could do. Shoot, if I was them and everyone said "FU" to me, then for sure I would work very hard so that eventually I could say "FU" right back.

My only point was to clarify the reason that knockoff precision parts made in China by Chinese companies cannot be seen as the equivalent in value and function as parts made by the original manufacturer, even if they are made in the same plant. Of course the Chinese have the potential to be the equal or better of the rest of the world given time, effort and resources. But that is not the case here and now.

Cost and quality are a result of more than just country of origin or pay rate of the workers on the line. And especially with motorcycles a big part of the value eqauation must be parts support after the initial purchase. A decent knock-off engine quickly becomes worthless if you cannot get a spare rocker, or cover, or tensioner, etc. If you're willing to invest in the knock-off engine in hopes that either the original part from an OEM will fit, or that eventually the same level of post-purchase hardware availability will be available in the future from the knock-off manufacturer, that is fine, but that is more about idealogy than practicality.

Agree that quality from China is not yet on par with the Japanese. But when Hyundai first hit our shores its quality was poor. It has taken 20 years, but its quality has been on par if not better than its peers for the last several years.

I think that the price justifies the risk and hope to be buying one soon. I also want to do my part to help their venture succeed.