Sorry - I don't get the 4 stroke off-road thing

So I've been off bikes and on sport quads for a lot of years. Like 18 or so. Recently most of my riding buddies have jumped ship back to bikes, so I decided to follow suit. I borrowed a friends Husqvarna 450 4 stroke a few weeks ago for a ride to see if I liked it. We ride in the mountains and the terrain is plenty challenging. I liked it. The bike, not the motor. Enough that I bought an old but solid 1998 KX250 last week.

Went riding yesterday. Lots of mud, rocks, slippery stuff, ascents and descents. Apparently the '98 KX was known to make good bottom end power. Wow. What a peach of a motor. The other guys were worn out from kicking and manhandling their big bulky 4-jokes and my old smoker started easily every time with one limp kick. It's light, it lofts the front wheel easy with just a tug on the bars, and it will lug up anything in 1-2 gear just fine with lots more on tap with a quick clutch stab. Not sure why the 4-stroke revolution caught on when there were bikes this sweet to ride at the time.

I know it's blamed on emissions etc. Blah blah blah. Whatever. Yammie, KTM and others still make the smokers so it can't be all because of that. Did people just turn into Bob Costas or what? haha

My Polaris 400 ring-a-dinger keeps up with most modern ATV out in the woods. I haven't seen a need yet.

And sure, they now make an 850cc and 1000cc version of my quad, but I almost killed myself with 400cc so what's the appeal there?

It's somewhat out dated, but the 2-strokers had peaky power bands, were more hyper and prone to fouling. The 4-strokers had flatter power bands and were more docile. So generally, 2-strokers would win the race, but 4-strokers were easier to trail ride with.

By no means an absolute rule, but it's still a moderately applicable generalization.

Back when I was riding every weekend back in the early nineties, there were a lot of guys that were my age now riding big thumpers. KTMs and XR600s mostly.

If I were going to go with a 4 stroke, I think that's the way I would go too. My understanding is that the mid-sized 4 strokes tend to be maintenance intensive and a bit unforgiving.

I'd rather keep mixing gas & oil than perform the maintenance some of the MX 4 strokes require.

OTOH, the only downside I see to something like an XR600, is picking it up after a spill. I guess the answer is never fall.

I retired from riding about 11 years ago from injuries (CR250). Even then the 4 strokes were starting to overtake the oil burners. Last year I decided to hit the track for old times sake. Rode a CR250F and a KX450F. Both of which were awesome machines.

I think I would prefer a 2 stroke in the sand dunes though (all top end).

Not sure what model Husky you were riding, but that might make the difference. The motocross bikes still feel pretty agile.

I love 2 strokes, but the new 450s are not big pigs. They have more power and more torque and weight less than 20 lbs more.

They are better at putting the power down in a lot of cases, now they have electric start, EFI and TC.

The Husky you rode is not the same as a CRF450r.

That said, the riding area I have is too small for a CR or CRF so I got a XR250. It is a pain to start hot or cold and the suspension stinks compared to my old CR250R.

Also the move from 2 to 4 strokes was due to racing rules allowing 450 cc to go against the 250 cc 2 strokes Had it been against 350 or 400 cc 4 strokes, it would have taken longer for the 2 strokes to be out classes. Doug Henry won the outdoor on a YZF400, but that was as much rider than machine.

Correct. The only reason 4 strokes became popular is because Honda (the 4 stroke company) lobbied hard to have the 4 stroke bikes handicapped. Size for size, they just can't make the power of a 2 stroke. They are also very much beginner friendly, and can be easier to ride. The club I race with does not have displacement classes, but instead, you are classed based on your speed. I race a 125 2 stroke against predominantly 450 4 strokes. Some of the guys I race with can either run the whole track in third gear, or use just second and third through a race. When I heard that, I did 2 full laps and counted how many times I shifted on each one. In one lap, I shifted up and down 50 times, running at full pace. I can imagine how much easier it would be if I didn't have to constantly work at keeping the bike in the power band, but I can also imagine how much boring it would be without the hit of a 2 stroke 125 at race speeds.

2 strokes are becoming more popular again because they are cheaper to buy, a lot cheaper and easier to maintain, more reliable, and a lot more fun to ride. KTM continues to develop them for both off road (woods bikes) and motocross, and a few European manufacturers continue to develop them for off road. A big reason KTM is number one, IMO. None of the Japanese are developing their 2 strokes. Only Yamaha still sells them, and they're essentially 2006 models with new plastic every few years.

The added cost and complexity of a 4 stroke race bike is what's causing it's demise in amateur racing. The fact that some countries have dropped the handicapping, and allow 2 and 4 stroke parity, is going to quicken that. When we have more injected 2 strokes and more friendly power bands, I think the 4 stroke race bike will become a minority at the gates. A lot of people point to the 4 stroke as the reason that motocross and off road racing is seeing reduced participation. I think that's a part of.

foxtrapper wrote: It's somewhat out dated, but the 2-strokers had peaky power bands, were more hyper and prone to fouling. The 4-strokers had flatter power bands and were more docile. So generally, 2-strokers would win the race, but 4-strokers were easier to trail ride with. By no means an absolute rule, but it's still a moderately applicable generalization.

the powerband can be tamed with a flywheel weight of various ounces. I love 2 strokes and even though they are tougher to ride they're a lot more fun IMO. My current go to bike is an 06 YZ250. One of my buddies had a 2010 Husky 450 with all kinds of mods and it was a great bike, but I much prefer the 2 strokes. I also have an old Husky 390 2 stroke....what a beast.

Rusnak_322 wrote: I love 2 strokes, but the new 450s are not big pigs. They have more power and more torque and weight less than 20 lbs more. They are better at putting the power down in a lot of cases, now they have electric start, EFI and TC. The Husky you rode is not the same as a CRF450r. That said, the riding area I have is too small for a CR or CRF so I got a XR250. It is a pain to start hot or cold and the suspension stinks compared to my old CR250R.

Weight depends on the bike of course. My 06 yz250 was 212 compared to my buddies 2010 Husky TE450, which was 275. Very noticeable especially after a long day of riding.

Apples and oranges. The TE is a street legal bike (which is ultra light for a 450 dual sport), and your YZ is a motocrosser.

The 06 YZ250 is a tractor, which is awesome if that's what you want, but for that reason, a lot of MX'ers don't like it. Awesome woods bike, though.

Zomby Woof wrote: Correct. The only reason 4 strokes became popular is because Honda (the 4 stroke company) lobbied hard to have the 4 stroke bikes handicapped. Size for size, they just can't make the power of a 2 stroke. They are also very much beginner friendly, and can be easier to ride. The club I race with does not have displacement classes, but instead, you are classed based on your speed. I race a 125 2 stroke against predominantly 450 4 strokes. Some of the guys I race with can either run the whole track in third gear, or use just second and third through a race. When I heard that, I did 2 full laps and counted how many times I shifted on each one. In one lap, I shifted up and down 50 times, running at full pace. I can imagine how much easier it would be if I didn't have to constantly work at keeping the bike in the power band, but I can also imagine how much boring it would be without the hit of a 2 stroke 125 at race speeds. 2 strokes are becoming more popular again because they are cheaper to buy, a lot cheaper and easier to maintain, more reliable, and a lot more fun to ride. KTM continues to develop them for both off road (woods bikes) and motocross, and a few European manufacturers continue to develop them for off road. A big reason KTM is number one, IMO. None of the Japanese are developing their 2 strokes. Only Yamaha still sells them, and they're essentially 2006 models with new plastic every few years. The added cost and complexity of a 4 stroke race bike is what's causing it's demise in amateur racing. The fact that some countries have dropped the handicapping, and allow 2 and 4 stroke parity, is going to quicken that. When we have more injected 2 strokes and more friendly power bands, I think the 4 stroke race bike will become a minority at the gates. A lot of people point to the 4 stroke as the reason that motocross and off road racing is seeing reduced participation. I think that's a part of.

My friend and I traded bikes at a harescramble years ago. 1/2 motocross track, 1/2 woods. My 1998 CR250R for his KTM 520 or 525 (can never keep track of KTM). I started at the gate in 2nd gear, shifted to third and kept it there the whole race. It was a 4 speed, but didn't ever need top gear or anything lower then third.

Other than trying to start it after droping it, it was fun.

It is hard to find good stats on these bikes, but a quick google search shows:

2014 Yamaha YZ250 - 212 lbs and 47 hp

2014 Yamaha YZ450F - 231 lbs and 55 hp - plus tons of torque

Never ridden a two smoker, but I like that they are very simply reliable, I've ridden a 2009 honda 230 it has had a few issues, wouldn't charge up a low battery and the jetting was set to pass emissions because it is catalysed.

I've ridden to where it would be very inconvenient to have to extract a dead bike and the simplicity of a two stroke seems like a great idea. Too bad I don't think you can run them on the streets in California.

Zomby Woof wrote: Apples and oranges. The TE is a street legal bike (which is ultra light for a 450 dual sport), and your YZ is a motocrosser. The 06 YZ250 is a tractor, which is awesome if that's what you want, but for that reason, a lot of MX'ers don't like it. Awesome woods bike, though.

His wasn't street legal, so I must have the model wrong. It didn't have lights or anything like that, but a light kit was available.

edit...his was the TXC and specs say 240 pounds. It sure felt like more! I swear if he still had it I'd weigh them lol.

I'd buy a Yamaha RZ300 before even considering another sv650.

Cotton wrote:

Rusnak_322 wrote: I love 2 strokes, but the new 450s are not big pigs. They have more power and more torque and weight less than 20 lbs more. They are better at putting the power down in a lot of cases, now they have electric start, EFI and TC. The Husky you rode is not the same as a CRF450r. That said, the riding area I have is too small for a CR or CRF so I got a XR250. It is a pain to start hot or cold and the suspension stinks compared to my old CR250R.

Weight depends on the bike of course. My 06 yz250 was 212 compared to my buddies 2010 Husky TE450, which was 275. Very noticeable especially after a long day of riding.

I have 2011 Husky TXC449 (completely new bike) and it weighs in at 242 with 45 hp. That thing is a freaking bullet. The issue that I have with it is that is FEELS huge but with the stock seat height up around 39" it is a bastard to ride.

In reply to singleslammer:

I agree. I have long legs and his TXC still felt awkward to me compared to my bike. It was a fun bike though...I'm just a 2 stroke junkie.

BTW I went to your website to look for those light brackets, but they weren't listed.

Pfff. I'm 5'7" (on a good day) with a 30" inseam and both my race bikes are Huskys. I got caught off course on the weekend, on the side of a hill, surrounded by logs and downed trees. If I stopped I was going down in a big way. If I didn't make it over the logs it would have been even worse. Somehow I made it

Zomby Woof wrote: Pfff. I'm 5'7" (on a good day) with a 30" inseam and both my race bikes are Huskys. I got caught off course on the weekend, on the side of a hill, surrounded by logs and downed trees. If I stopped I was going down in a big way. If I didn't make it over the logs it would have been even worse. Somehow I made it

I'm not the most elegant rider and use my legs a lot in the woods....lol. It isn't pretty but gets the job done.

So in the original post, the Husky I referred to is the dual sport 450, I think it's a 2010. It's been stripped of all its road use stuff, but it's still a heavy feeling beast that makes good grunt but is still surprisingly willing to stall if you let it lug down just a BIT too much. Thank goodness for the easy button.

My KX also has a flywheel weight and an FMF Gnarly pipe, and has what I would consider a tractor type powerband. Pulls good right off idle, then has a very controlled but quick transition onto the pipe in the midrange. I do not see any reason why it is harder to ride than a 4 stroke. And it's super duper easier to start after you dump it upside down on the hill.

Also, and of course this is my opinion, 4 stroke dirt bikes sound stupid and annoying.

I realize some 2 strokes are more violent and harder to keep in a useable rpm range, but that's to do more with intended purpose and specific porting etc than an inherent flaw. I'm really eager to try another friends KTM 300XCW. I think it may be just what the doctor ordered.

Those 98 KX250's are great bikes. I had a chance to buy one a few years ago that was completely rebuilt, and very nicely, by an older, returning rider. He hit the first turn (literally), broke some ribs, and never got back on the bike again. I should have bought it, but thought a 250 was probably too much bike for me.

Gasgas, Sherco, and Beta all make exceptional 2 stroke woods bikes, with very smooth power bands. They can be just as smooth as a 4 stroke, but rarely are because of the application, and because people buy based on the big HP number. Gasgas seems to be able to satisfy both.